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Y-DNA Haplogroup R-L617 (my y-dna haplotree)   And    mtDNA Haplogroup J (my mtdna Results)

R-L617 is a project for those persons having the Y-DNA SNP L617.  This is in R1b haplogroup, below the SNPs DF27, and Z2552.

L617 may have occurred between about 3,800 and 3,200 years ago, and it possibly occurred in Iberia.  It is found in families from Iberia, England, Netherlands, and Poland, but as more people test for L617, it will likely be found in wider areas.  It appears that it started spreading around Europe about 3,000 years ago in the Bronze Age. 

So far those English and Netherland families with L617 also have the SNP FGC14951, but families in Iberia and Poland don't. There has been more testing in England, and we have identified old clusters of L617 in Cornwall, Staffordshire and Cheshire, and Northumberland.

7/27/2017: I have just received my test result for FGC14951 - it is negative.  So although my family is based in Northumberland, in the paragraph above I'm told my line comes from either Poland or Iberia (Spain)   There is another ancient Iberia besides Spain, it roughly mirrors Georgia on the Black Sea and is as far from Poland as is Spain.  Spain was one of the refuge areas during the ice age, so I'm sure they mean Spain when speaking of Iberia.

In the past 1,000 years at least, L617 has spread out from these areas.  We hope that everyone with L617 will join the R-L617 project, as this helps us to research the origins and distribution.  They are also encouraged to join the R-DF27 project, as it helps to spread awareness of L617 as a subclade.  We hope to link all L617s in an accurate family tree, which can be constructed using the SNPs found in different branches. These branch SNPs are mostly found by testing a representative selection of L617s with the FTDNA BigY test. Some of these branch SNPs can be tested as individual marker tests. At the date of starting the R-L617 project, 30 Sept 2015, we have already tested more than 15 L617s on BigY, and have already identified a number of branch SNPs. There is some information about L617 at the web page at . The Project Administrator John Marsh, 26 Higcrest Heights, Christchurch 8025, NEW ZEALAND welcomes any inquiry about L617, and is particularly keen to hear from any persons who are found to have the mutation L617. Sometimes the SNP is described as L617+ for those who have tested positive for it. If they have tested negative, ie do not have the SNP, it is reported as L617-. John Marsh.


Northumbria originally included the district between the Humber and the Frith of Forth, but in the year 975 the northern portion was ceded under conditions to Kenneth Macalpine, the Scot king, and after the battle of Carham, in 1018, the Tweed became the distinct boundary between the two kingdoms. In 959 there was an earl of York in distinction to the earl of  Northumberland, the present county, but this distinction was not always maintained until after the Conquest. It appears, however, that the present county has held a certain distinctive difference to the rest of ancient Northumbria.

Aeneas Silvius, afterwards Pope Pius ii, when sent ambassador into Scotland in 1448, gives the following character to the people of the county: That coming to a large village about sunset, he alighted at a countryman's house where he supped with the curate of the place and his host.   The table was plentifully furnished with pottage, hens and geese, but had neither wine nor bread.   All the men and women in the town flocked to see him as some strange sight, asking the curate who he was, what he came for, and whether he was a Christian.   Aeneas, being forewarned of the scarcity of the county, had procured of a monastery adjoining, a rundlet of wine and some loaves of bread; the people were astonished at them, because they had never seen any before . . . . women came to the table, and having handled the bread and smelt on the wine, begged a taste, so that there was no avoiding to deal the whole among them.   After supper, a fear of an invasion from the Scots, who often at low water crossed the Tweed to pillage and rob, dispersed the company, all but the women - many of whom were very beautiful - whom they left behind because they thought the Scots would not harm them . . . . Camden says that this description is not the due of the Northumbrians in his time . . . . he informs us also that the mosstrooping trade in robbing and pillaging is very much laid aside, so that persons and their goods are as safe on the borders as elsewhere, and in a word, the gentry of Northumberland are generally persons of address, and breeding, and preservers of the old English hospitality in their houses, and the peasants are as knowing a people and courteous to strangers as the people usually are in any other county. (Camden, vol. iii., p. 240.)

Fuller, writing in 1799, says, 'The English gentry who live southward near London (which for the lustre thereof I may fitly call the sun of our nation), in the warmth of wealth and plenty of pleasure, quickly dissolve themselves of their estates and inheritance, whilst the gentry living in this country in the confines of Scotland, in the wind of war (daily alarmed with their blustering enemies), buckle their estates as their armour the closer unto them, and since have no less thriftily defended their patrimony in peace than formerly they valiantly maintained it in war.

Grey, in 1649, writing in his' Chronographia,' says, 'The nobility and gentry of the north are of great antiquity, and can produce more ancient families than any other part of England; many of them gentry before the Conquest, the rest came in with the Conqueror.  The nobility and gentry of the north have been always employed in their native country in the wars of the [sic]

In the Borderlands between England and Scotland called Marches, the words "road", "raid", "raiding" and "riding" were synonymous.   When someone was known as ever riding - it meant they were on constant forays.  [Credits the book  - The Steel Bonnets.]

Surnames of the Marches

The following families lived throughout the border region:  
Charlton (Carleton), Elliot (Elwood, Ellot), Finwick, Forster (Forrester, Foster), Graham (Graeme), Hall, Hetherington (Hetherton, Atherton), Irvine (Irving, Urwen), Johnstone (Johnston, Johnstoun), Musgrave, Nixon (Nicksoun), Robson, Scot, Storey (Storie, Storye).

West March - Armstrong, Bell, Lowther, Curwen, Salkeld, Dacre, Harden, Hodgson, Routledge, Tailor, Noble.   
Middle March -
Collingwood, Carnaby, Heron, Medford, Ogle, Ridley, Shaftoe, Witherington (Woodrington).  
East March -
Dunne, Gray, Selby;  
Anderson, Hedley, Potts, Read.  
Dodd, Milburn, Stapleton, Yarrow, Hunter, Jamieson, Stokoe, Stamper, Thomson, Wilkinson.  

West March -
Armstrong, Beattie (Baty, Batisoun), Bell, Carlisle, Carruthers, Glendenning, Little, Maxwell, Moffat.  [Credit - The Steel Bonnets.]   
Middle March -
Burn (Bourne), Croser (Crosar, Crozier), Davison, Douglas, Gilchrist, Henderson, Kerr (Ker, Carr, Carre), Laidlaw, Oliver, Pringle, Rutherford, Tait, Turnbull (Trumble), Turner, Young   
East March
- Bromfield, Cranston, Craw, Dixon, Hume (Home), Trotter.   .  

[Credits the book - The Steal Bonnets]

Original Entry - Extract from Nennius's  "Historia Brittonum (History of the Britons)" 

From Chapter 31.  "Horsa and Hengist, brothers, were sons of Wihtgils.  Wihtgils was the son of Witta;  Witta of Wecta;  Wecta of Woden;  Woden of Frithowald;  Frithowald of Frithuwulf;  Frithuwulf of Finn;  Finn of Godwulf;  Godwulf of Geat." ... "Vortigern received them as friends, and delivered up to them the island which is in their language called Thanet, and, by the Britons, Ruym.  Gratianus AEquantius at that time reigned in Rome.  The Saxons were received by Vortigern four hundred and forty-seven years after the passion of Christ, and, according to the tradition of our ancestors, from the period of their first arrival in Britain, to the first year of the reign of king Edmund, five hundred and forty-two years; and to that in which we now write, which is the fifth of his reign, five hundred and forty-seven years."

From chapter 37 of Nennius's "History of the Britons" he wrote "Then Hengist, who had already consulted with the elders who attended him of the Oghgul race" -   [I read this to clearly mean that Hengist was also of the Clan or Tribe of Oghgul].   According to some accounts these people were Jutes from the island then known as Oghgul somewhere off the coast of current day Denmark.   Since in but a few years the peninsula was denuded of Jutes and Angles it is possible that the "island" was in fact the entire peninsula.   In any case, King Vortigern married Hengist daughter (making her the first Saxon Queen in England (or Jute or Angle).
Hengist received the area called Kent as his base, and he then accepted the commission to protect king Vortigern's territories from the northern invaders.  The King agreed to give land and gold to all warriors Hengist brought to the task.

From Chapter 38.  Hengist, convinced Vortigern, to accept his counsel and sent for his sons Octa and Ebusa, both valiant men who fought against the Scots.  Octa and Ebusa arrived with forty ships.  They sailed round the country of the Picts, laid waste the Orkneys, and took possession of many regions, even to the Pictish confines and near the wall called Gual.  They were given kingship of the countries in the north.

Since I discovered the above I have found a most interesting web page, it speaks about Hengist and names his daughter. Go to Rowena

Blood Quest, is the Quest for the original Ogle Family bloodline and is intended to discover if the ancient and honorable family of Ogle of Northumberland is derived from the Clan or Tribe called Oghgul.   Hengist had consulted the elders of the Oghgul race (Nennius's  "Historia Brittonum chapter 37) before meeting with King Vortigern in Britain about 447 AD.   He later sent for many more tribesmen and they eventually controlled all of England south of Scotland and East of Wales possible including the Eastern marches between England and Scotland .   Included in the Quest is:  info on Heraldry  --  A Historic Timeline which allows us to see how the Family fit within it  --  Maps  --  Who Was Rowena  --  And the big question:  Is the Ogle bloodline from a tribe of Angles or Jutes from what is now the Denmark peninsula, or Saxons from northern Germany or are we Celts that were in England before the "Saxon invasion" after 447 AD.  I have tested 111 markers and my specific DNA has no definitive Scandinavian markers according to FTDNA, but one Ogle of those so far tested is listed to be of the "I" Scandinavian haplogroup, this may mean that some Ogle bloodlines must have mixed during the Viking era.

2013/05/24:  This morning I found this link ( ).   Which if proves credible will change a number of things I think I know concerning early English history, in that it declares that some names and places are incorrect in documents that I rely on.  In one case; the name oghgul is here verified, while in other writings, and in an e-mail exchange I had with a supposed historian (I no longer remember the University) the name has been called "corrupted" from onglin.

In 2000 and 2007 Frank D. Reno author of the above web page produced books about the Celtic legend of Arthur on sale now for $35. One who examined the book is very impressed with the amount of research apparent.   Based therefore, on the scant information available from that era it seem Reno has made a viable impression on at least one reader who has commented at length to the historic value of the research.

2005/09/20: When this was first written there was strong reasoning that the family could be of Dane ancestry.  Some of the family may indeed carry a Scandanavin DNA marker.  However, my DNA test of May 2005, reports that my DNA does not indicate Scandinavian ancestry, so I have put aside that expectation for myself.

There was no surprise to learn that indicators were strong for English, Irish and even Scot ancestry.  I should make the point that there are/were a lot of Ogles from England settled in the English areas of Northern Ireland, and I believe in Scotland as well.

The genealogy book "Ogle and Bothal" by Sir Henry A. Ogle, Baronet, 1902, indicates the possibility that the islands of Oghgul spoken of by Nennius were to the west of Britannia and not east.   Reasoning being Hengist sent for more warriors, these warriors came from "islands" and not an "island" and they sailed around the country of the Picts, laid waste the Orkneys and occupied several territories across the Frisian Sea, that is to say the land between Hengist, and the boundary of the Picts.   Now I have to get out the maps - - The mystery continues.

2006/01/09:  Something more to consider.

This is an extract from the web pages of the Yale University's medieval studies on Nenius, see note [1].  These data supports the more common theory that the "race" [tribe] of Oghgul came from Germany's North Coast or what is now Denmark, leaving one to realize that the truth is yet to be had.

37. But Hengist, in whom united craft and penetration, perceiving he had to act with an ignorant king, and a fluctuating people, incapable of opposing much resistance, replied to Vortigern, "We are, indeed, few in number; but, if you will give us leave, we will send to our country for an additional number of forces, with whom we will fight for you and your subjects." Vortigern assenting to this proposal, messengers were dispatched to Scythia, where selecting a number of warlike troops, they returned with sixteen vessels, bringing with them the beautiful daughter of Hengist. And now the Saxon chief prepared an entertainment, to which he invited the king, his officers, and Ceretic, his interpreter, having previously enjoined his daughter to serve them so profusely with wine and ale, that they might soon become intoxicated. This plan succeeded; and Vortigern, at the instigation of the devil, and enamoured with the beauty of the damsel, demanded her, through the medium of his interpreter, of the father, promising to give for her whatever he should ask. Then Hengist, who had already consulted with the elders who attended him of the Oghgul[1] race, demanded for his daughter the province, called in English, Centland, in British, Ceint, (Kent.) This cession was made without the knowledge of the king, Guoyrancgonus,[2] who then reigned in Kent, and who experienced no inconsiderable share of grief, from seeing his kingdom thus clandestinely, fraudulently, and imprudently resigned to foreigners. Thus the maid was delivered up to the king, who slept with her, and loved her exceedingly.

[1] V.R. Who had come with him from the island of Oghgul; Oehgul (or Tingle); Angul.  According to Gunn, a small island in the duchy of Sleswick in Denmark, now called Angel, of which Flensburg (Flensburg map)  is the metropolis . Hence the origin of the Angles.

The following extract is from the web page
- (*) Linguistically seen, English is much more closely related to Juttish (85%) than Danish (only 60%), since many of the Vikings who, around year 1000, brought the dönsk tunga into England stemmed from Angel, which is South and Southern Jutland (now Denmark). Reminiscences thereof can be seen in English grammar even today. For instance, Juttish as well as English uses only one grammatical gender (sexus communis), whereas Danish (in the same way as Dutch) has two genders (namely sexus communis and neuter) - and Old Norse, German and Icelandic have three (masculinum, femininum, and neuter) as does Latin and Greek.

Language: North Germanic - n. A subdivision of the Germanic languages that includes Norwegian, Icelandic, Swedish, Danish, and Faroese. Also called Norse, Scandinavian.

The Ogle name is thought to have been taken from a place name.  There is still an Ogle village in Northumberland.  I hypothesize Oghgul and Ogle to be the same people based on the reading of Nennius's "Historia Brittonum" see extract of chapters 31, 37, and 38. 

1) The name was established well before dictionaries, so spelling was in the writers ear.  The Germanic phonetic pronunciation of "Oghgul" and the current English pronunciation of "Ogle (long O - gle as in tingle)" are the same.  Current German pronunciation of Ogle is "O-glay".  To be phonetically correct in present day German "Ogle" would be spelled "Ogel", and yet oghgul would still be pronounced Ogle.

2) The Family owned large tracts of land in Northumberland prior to 1066 (the Norman Invasion).

The dilemma still exist that:

Dane Law included most if not all of Northumberland.  During "Viking" raids into Saxon territories in the south of England the Saxon Chronicles tell us the Danes would stash their families, and their booty in Northumberland.  They would not have done so unless they were very sure the place was secure to them, or that they could easily defend it.  The Ogle Genealogist (obtained from the Ogle Family Association, Volume 24, includes an extract from the Saxon Chronicles and includes all mentions of Northumberland.

My current hypothesis is, 1) The Ogle clan was too strong for the Danes and was not assimilated during the time of Dane Law.  2) They were sufficiently strong in 1066 to be useful to King William, and by doing homage retained all their lands as is previously and elsewhere stated.  3) The dilemma is that my ongoing DNA research has in one place an indication that I have Celtic DNA, but in another place not.  Perhaps I will eventually verify that I am an Ogle from Old England.  It would be most helpful if an Ogle of England and Ireland would take the DNA test for a comparison.  Of course we still need a paper trail.

About a century later, (meaning after the event) and with the aid of hindsight the Celtic monk Gildas [Who despised the invaders] wrote "Vortigern introduced these ferocious Saxons of unspeakable name, hateful to God and men, bringing as it were wolves into the fold in order to beat back the nations of the north.  A pack of cubs bursting forth from the lair of the barbaric lioness.  They landed first in the eastern part of the island and there fixed their terrible claws, pretending that they would fight for our country, but really to fight against it".

We know it was not long before the new settlers realized Bretanie was a rich land, and through centuries of being forcibly disarmed by Roman decree, the Brettas were ripe for picking.

Remember that during "Viking" invasions late in the first millennium, their sacking and burning of the towns and churches, destroyed all or most of the libraries and schools of the Northumberland kingdoms. The documents found by Archeologist, and Historians to-date are believed to be copied from early documents.

It seems that if Hengist was of the clan of Oghgul, then very many of the ancient families of England are also of that clan.  If this quest proves true then Ogle will be one of the oldest identifiable families in Briton.

I have yet to again find the reference, but I have read that Oglethorpe is a "Viking" name, the part "thorpe" being a word meaning near, or neighbor.  If this is true then oglenear or ogleneighbor would positively indicate that the place (location) of ogle existed sometime during the "Viking expansion period" [800-1000 AD].  The Oglethorpe clan must have been migrating rather than on a plunder raid, and settled near the Ogle area.  During the "Viking" take over of much of England during this time they used Northumberland as a safe haven for their families and plundered goods - why were the Northumberland people so friendly?  Read Scandinavian Ogle?

Some time not long after 436 AD the Saxons were allied to the Huns and until about 452-3 AD were fighting their way westward with the Huns.  When the Hun king died, the coalition fell apart because of the bickering of the numerous sons.  The native tribes then turned on and overthrew the squabbling Huns.  It seems to me that this alone would have occupied the Saxons for a few years while they re-established their territories. 

Some historians state the Jutes established the first settlements in South East Britania in the year 447 AD.  This is two years before Hengist (said to be Saxon) was given Kent, But the chronicles tell us Hengist sent for his daughter in 449 AD, one must be in a place before sending for someone, this puts him there before 449 AD.  This, along with the similarity of language suggest Hengist was a Jute from angel (or Angel from Juteland). 

This leads to the next possibility, the "Oghgul race" may have been Scandinavian, Jute, Angle or even Frisian, and not Saxon.  If Hengist was of the Saxon race, the warriors and relatives he sent for would be all Saxon would they not?  In the beginning he made all the deals, so why and how did he succumb and allow the new land to be named after the Angles.

The homeland on the peninsula from where the Jutes and Angles came must have been abandoned by the Jutes and Angles because in but a few years the entire peninsula was occupied by the ancestors of the present day Danes.

The name Saxon was often given to all of the invaders, regardless of, or perhaps not knowing, from where they came.

Disclaimer: These pages contain data extracted over the years from university or Government projects, from books and from other webs I found during my research.  Although I have long forgotten from where some of this data came, I have given credit when known.

This is an excellent site - for research, I found these entries in their database thanks to James Ogle alerting me of same. click on "database" in the box on the left side of page.

For more information contact:

Dr Adrian R Bell or

Professor Anne Curry

First Name De Surname Status Rank Captain Name Commander Year Nature of Activity Reference Membrane
John   Ogle   Archer Despenser, Edward Lord Cambridge, Edmund of Langley, earl of, and Brittany, John, duke of 1375 Exped France TNA E101/34/3 m3d
John   Ogle   Archer Despenser, Edward Lord Cambridge, Edmund of Langley, earl of, and Brittany, John, duke of 1375 Exped France TNA E101/34/5 m3d
Thomas de Ogle Esquire Man-at-arms Arundel, Richard Fitz Alan, earl of Arundel, Richard Fitz Alan, earl of 1388 Exped Naval TNA E101/41/5 m1d
Robert   Ogle   Archer Gloucester, Humphrey, Duke of Henry V 1415 Exped France TNA E101/45/13 m4
William   Ogle   Archer Harrington, John, Lord Henry V 1415 Exped France TNA E101/47/33 no4 m1
Thomas   Ogle   Man-at-arms Woodville, Richard Woodville, Richard 1421 Standing force, France TNA E101/49/37 m1
Thomas   Ogle   Man-at-arms Woodville, Richard Woodville, Richard 1421 Standing force, France TNA E101/49/37 m2
Thomas   Ogle   Man-at-arms Woodville, Richard Woodville, Richard 1421 Standing force, France TNA E101/49/37 m4
Thomas   Ogle   Man-at-arms Woodville, Richard Woodville, Richard 1421 Standing force, France TNA E101/49/37 m5
Edward   Ogle   Man-at-arms Warwick, Richard Beauchamp, Earl of Gloucester, Humphrey, Duke of 1417 Exped France TNA E101/51/2 m12


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